S1 E15: This week on the podcast, we chat with Joel Love, Antioch’s newest elder, about his faith journey, leadership at Antioch, and even why spreadsheets can be a great tool to help us be on mission together.
Tags: Life in the CityTranscript
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00:00:31
Roll up the neck.
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Do another episode of The Lights and City podcast.
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We are recording from a new venue tonight.
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We are not in a echoey space next to a train station.
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We are sitting in the loves living.
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Room, AKA the.
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Love Shack, I wasn’t going to say it.
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I’m happy to stay at the.
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Love shack.
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We are sitting on the love Jack which cracks me up because but we’re doing that because we are interviewing Joel love tonight, which is really really fun.
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Happy to be here, it does seem fun.
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Thank you, thank you, thank.
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Welcome to the.
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Living room.
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You thank you for allowing me in.
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We can we can do this.
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So this episode.
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Is just one of those where we want to get to know a member of Antioch.
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And for those of you that don’t know Joel, maybe you can feel like you know him a little bit better.
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At the end of this, but because of the various hats you wear, we’ll also kind of talk about some other things.
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As a new elder recent treasurer.
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I don’t know.
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What else other stuff?
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Other tasks as assigned.
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We’ve been talking a lot about being volentold recently, but maybe that’s.
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You volunteered for some things you might have been volunteered for some things too.
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No, no spiritual gifts were identified.
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My my parents church have a gifts discernment committee so they they discern people’s spiritual gifts and then ask them to exercise them in various roles throughout the church which.
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Like you can’t say no to someone discerning your spiritual gifts and telling you how to use them and so they get a lot of volunteers.
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I mean, it’s probably effective, right?
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Potentially shaming.
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Maybe I mean also as I mean and I’m sure like John Wajiha and Jenny Hubbard would speak to this too.
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But as a spouse of a staff member, you you do a lot of things around the church that you definitely don’t get paid for, but because you have a a spouse on staff, like if I am.
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Stacking chairs you’re stacking chairs with me or, you know, things like that just happen.
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So we thank you for that service too.
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I’m gonna get you guys a bigger pump for draining.
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The baptismal ohhh you don’t want to be.
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Ohh please yeah right.
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There for six hours.
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Yeah yeah ohh yeah well it’s it’s a lesson in patience but before we get into more Antioch stuff, let’s I mean cause I don’t even know some things about you, Joel.
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So I would love.
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To just.
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Hear, just tell us about yourself.
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Where’d you grow up?
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With do you have siblings?
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What did you study?
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Just the basics, kind of what do?
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You do for fun.
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Yeah, yeah yeah.
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That sort of thing.
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I grew up in Indianapolis that’s from Indiana.
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Oh, you aren’t in Minnesota.
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I’m not a Minnesotan.
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We forgive you.
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Yeah, I’m a transplant.
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We’ve been in Minnesota.
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For five years.
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I have two older brothers and a little sister, so I am kind of a middle child, but kind of a youngest child because they say the gender split kind of matters on that stuff, so I’m the youngest boy.
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I went to Calvin College after graduating from Zionsville High School studied mechanical engineering, Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI.
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That was where we can get into this probably a little bit more later, but I was kind of exposed to some reformed theology and and all of those.
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Calvinistic things that happened at Calvin College, but mostly I was there to learn engineering and.
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Hang out with my friends.
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I was gonna say was it a surprise given the name of the college or.
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I didn’t know anything I didn’t, not sure I even knew who John Calvin was before I went to the.
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OK.
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School you were just looking for like a good engineering program, OK?
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Yeah, yeah, you’re right.
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A Christian School, an engineering program, and it was an appropriate distance from home, not too close and not too far, so I grew up in the Mennonite Church.
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In my family is all well, my parents are still at that church in Indianapolis.
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Went to Calvin College and then.
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After graduating with my Mechanical engineering degree, moved to Pittsburgh for seven years.
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I lived there working for a company that did nuclear power plant design, which was.
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Educational, it was experience.
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It was work.
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It was not like a ton of fun.
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Umm, but I’m glad to have done it.
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And then Rachel and I met in 2016. Good job, got married in 2017.
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It’s all a test.
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This is this is with no notes people.
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And right I can, yeah, and what 2-3 months? Four months maybe after getting married we moved to Minnesota? Yeah, from Pittsburgh.
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And you moved because of the work.
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You do now.
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I move for the work I do now, which is very different than the work I was doing then yes, so a good friend of mine that I grew up with we had always wanted to start a business together.
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So he’s from Indianapolis as well.
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He came up here to go to the University of Minnesota for grad school, which is why.
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He was here and he and I had just basically been toying around the idea of starting some sort of business for many years, and then he kind of got into Hobby hydroponic farm.
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And did that in his basement for about a year and then said that he thought he could turn it into a business and I was kind of done doing engineering work and Rachel was on board to move to.
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Minnesota, why not?
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So we we packed up and came out here and started.
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A hydroponic farm.
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That’s awesome, I like to joke that he went from like nuclear power plants to like growing plants.
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So it’s all plant related for sure.
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Yeah, very plant centric, yeah?
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I like it, yeah.
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Well, what was that like for you guys?
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To move across the country.
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For a job that you were creating for yourself with no family or natural network aside from this one friend.
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Yeah, so it’s probably different for Rachel and I maybe I had already. I mean, Pittsburgh. So Pittsburgh is 6-7 hours away from Indianapolis, so I was already kind of not around my family and hometown all the time. And so moving to Minnesota was further away and made some of the logistics of traveling to family.
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Harder, but it wasn’t like a huge shift in my own personal.
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Day-to-day thought process of how I would interact with my family.
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Rachel was living 20 minutes away from parents, brothers, nieces, grandparents, aunts.
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Yeah, and it’s so.
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So now being 1314 hours away from all of those folks is probably a little bit more.
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Of a shift.
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Sure, but I think I think it’s.
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Been good, yeah it has been good.
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Yes, I swear we talk about this more than.
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Just on a podcast.
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But also it was a shift too, because I mean when I I like to joke that it was like a bait and switch like when I met you he was working at this nuclear power plant like.
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Oh yeah.
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Our nuclear facility and.
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Like had this great engineering job and was making good money and then we got married and he was like I’m quitting and we’re going to go start our own business and I may not make money for a while can.
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We live on your teaching salary.
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You’re like I.
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Don’t know can we?
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Yeah, but.
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I said I’m frugal, I think I.
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Can make it work.
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You are very frugal.
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Literally last night we spent an hour or you spent almost an hour researching socks online that you wanted to buy and you were very displeased on the prices of socks.
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So this is.
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How often he actually spends money on himself?
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I don’t do a lot.
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Of clothes shopping.
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Yeah yeah and it’s gone.
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Up this last year and a half.
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It’s unsettling, yeah, been out there.
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Or so, and yeah, painful if.
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In a while, right?
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But all that to say, I mean, it was a a definitely a a leap of faith in our first year of marriage.
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Of we’re going to move to a place where we don’t really know many people and our financial situation is going to look a whole lot different, and we’re going to have to trust God.
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To go before us and he did, yes.
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You did.
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That’s awesome, so because you said that you just said, you know, we have to trust God to go before us and you said you.
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Grew up.
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Mennonite, yeah, so talk about that a little bit like what?
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For those who, for the uninitiated, what is a Mennonite?
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And when did you stop wearing the little caps and?
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Things and just kidding.
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Yeah, yeah.
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His name was Jedediah before this.
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Right, right?
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So Mennonites are Christians.
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Yes, yes, thank you.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Let’s start there.
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So historically they came out of the Reformation, right?
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There’s sort of the the Calvinists and the Lutherans and the Anabaptists.
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So Mennonites are in the Anabaptist tradition.
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I think the Mennonites oftentimes get associated with the Amish because there are some historical roots there that overlap.
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But most Mennonites look a lot like everyone else.
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‘s Mennonites, they’re just like us.
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Right?
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Exactly so so growing up, Mennonite didn’t feel particularly odd.
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Like I fit in at school, people didn’t think I was.
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A weirdo, well they.
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You went to.
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Did but not because I wasn’t.
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Not for that reason though.
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It was that was totally unrelated.
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But I think there’s an emphasis on kind of living simply.
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Thus the frugality.
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Certainly a heavy emphasis on nonviolence and peacemaking trying to follow Jesus teaching to love your enemies and bless those who persecute you.
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So there’s sort of a a heavy teaching focus on that.
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But yeah, it’s a.
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It’s a Protestant denomination, yeah?
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And so, having grown up, you would say, like you heard the gospel from an early age.
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You heard the teachings about Jesus.
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It depends when.
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You would have asked me that question.
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OK.
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I’ve heard it.
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I’ve heard people explain.
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Oftentimes lots of people will after coming to faith and having grown up in a church environment and then coming to faith, or at least a more genuine rooted faith later in life, they will kind of complain.
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Nobody ever preached the gospel to me in my home church like what were they doing?
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Yeah, and that was definitely me in my 20s.
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I I was kind of whiny about like why?
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Why wasn’t my church teaching me the gospel?
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If you go back there today, you’ll sit in the service and be like oh, they.
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Are teaching the gospel.
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I couldn’t hear it or for some reason the Holy Spirit had not yet opened my ears and eyes to be able to accept it.
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With that said, I did understand the gospel and I was baptized at the age of 16 in the Mennonite Church, kind of confessing my sin, and that Jesus is Lord and accepting his forgiveness.
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But I probably.
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What I think I felt later in life was that.
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My sin.
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Well, it wasn’t evident to me.
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Hmm, and so probably that was actually the foundation, because I didn’t actually see my own sin.
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I wasn’t actually hearing the message of forgiveness and reconciliation.
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I just knew that there this was the thing that you kind of did when it came down to the heaven hell.
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Problem right right?
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Yeah, like a fire insurance kind of thing.
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Yeah, we probably would have called it fire insurance, but it did kind of feel like there’s this eternal destiny choice and you know, you, you gotta be with Jesus to go to the.
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Good one, and so that was a decision that I had made without fully probably processing and internalizing it.
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Sure, well, and I think for those of us that did grow up in the church, it’s it’s not fair and you’re not doing this.
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I’m not saying that.
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It’s tempting to judge our past way of thinking or our past perspectives with our current knowledge and our current experiences.
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And that’s this is.
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Not fair right?
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You know.
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So did 16 year old Joel understand the gospel as he understood it.
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Yeah, probably right now you’re like oh wow, I knew nothing.
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Yeah, right?
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And and 20 years from now you’re gonna look back at yourself.
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As a new dad and a new elder and be like who will let this man lead anything?
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But that’s not the point.
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The point is in the moment.
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Am I giving everything I know of myself to everything I?
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Know of Jesus?
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And I think that’s probably the the problem is that I didn’t know anything of myself right?
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And 16 year olds don’t.
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Yeah, that’s kind of the whole process of yeah.
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Teenage years is figuring all.
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That out so totally totally.
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So then.
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So you said you were kind of whiny in your 20s, like which I think happens to a lot of us in college.
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Yeah, certainly.
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But then as you kind of.
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Became a real adult.
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I know, I know.
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Post 18 is technically adult, right?
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Not really.
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Didn’t feel like it.
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How is your faith matured evolved?
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What does following Jesus look like now?
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That’s maybe different from when you.
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Were in college.
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Yeah, so I think in college I actually remember explicitly thinking or wondering or questioning why I actually needed Jesus.
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Like I, I felt like I kind of had stuff under control and I was cruising along just fine and I actually wasn’t that bad.
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And so, like.
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I I guess I needed him in order to get into heaven, but I wasn’t quite sure I understood why I needed him daily.
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On the day-to-day kind of thing, it’s like I need him in eternity, but.
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Yeah, right?
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Why do I need him now, yeah.
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And then a great learning experience to experience your own depravity is to graduate college and move to a new city where you don’t know anybody.
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You have total anonymity, total independence and no community and you just get to kind of make it all up for yourself.
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And that’s a recipe for disaster.
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And so I think I I very quickly.
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Came to see that me left my own devices was a life of misery because I was desperately wicked and made horrible choices and.
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Was soon very miserable and very lonely and had nowhere to turn except back to Jesus and to the church.
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Right?
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And so that’s where I sort of got more rooted in a local church that that taught me.
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Probably a more reformed.
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Explanation of the gospel and what the reformed tradition does great is explain things very clearly and almost like formulaically
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They’re not actually formulas, but it worked really way really well for my brain.
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I’m an engineer.
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I like thinking analytically and.
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Politically and so kind of understanding how deep my sin was and how much deeper God’s love for me was and how that would kind of that.
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That kindness and that love is what would transform my life as opposed to kind of understanding the right things and then trying to to live them.
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Was probably a transforming.
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Time in my early 20s and I think since then.
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My recognition of my own need is tends to be how I grow in Christ.
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Like every day.
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It seems like I realize more and more how.
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I am in a sense and and needy I guess like apart from him I’m I make horrible decisions and.
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I I I lead badly, I interact with people badly and so.
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I think my own misery is oftentimes the signpost that, like, oh, I think I may have drifted away from the source of life here, which is Jesus, and so I.
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Think a continual realization of how much.
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I need him is probably.
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Probably how I grow.
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Yeah, that’s and that’s such a great reminder.
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I think for all of us that it’s not like a one and done.
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It’s not an arrival.
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It’s not that even to realize that I need him isn’t great.
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I’ve realized that next you.
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Know that going to level.
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Up yeah yeah it it’s yeah.
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You’re gonna need more tomorrow.
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And and as soon as I think I don’t, it’s when I.
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Need them the.
00:16:38
Most yeah, so how do you see then what you?
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You’ve done a lot of things for work, a variety of of jobs and now working in in hydroponics.
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Do you call it hydroponics or aquaponics?
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Hydroponics aquaponics has fish.
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OK.
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We killed too many fish and so we stopped using.
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The fish for real, that’s what happened you.
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Those we started.
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Died not on a large scale.
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Really tiny scale aquaponics and murdered all the fish so easier just to dissolve the fertilizer into the water.
00:17:02
Goldfish, that’s amazing.
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Goldfish stuck in like tubes and yeah.
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It was.
00:17:07
It was gruesome like got sucked into pumps and stuff, yeah?
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If you think of like in Finding Nemo like the scene where the fish are trying to.
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It’s so amazing.
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Like knock it.
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Yeah, that that happened to some entrepreneurs.
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OK, so you.
00:17:26
Know I’m sorry if you’re listening PETA.
00:17:27
Yeah, I.
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Don’t come for us.
00:17:31
For urbanize in Edina, MN.
00:17:33
Stop ohh hilarious.
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Throw your competitors under the.
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Bus OK ohh man.
00:17:41
Uhm, OK so then.
00:17:43
But how do you see whether it’s what you’re doing now or what you’ve done at any point?
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How do you see your work as like an expression of your faith, or as a way of.
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Living out the gospel or bringing.
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Christ to the world.
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You could think of it in a lot of different ways.
00:18:01
That’s a lot of different.
00:18:03
Aspects of asking kind of.
00:18:04
The same question.
00:18:06
Yeah, so our community group recently did kind of a a work discussion series and we we framed it in kind of two categories that I found really helpful.
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Which was that we we were given a a a creation mandate or a cultural mandate in Genesis.
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Two, one and two might be in both of those.
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To to cultivate the Earth to draw value out of it.
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To make things that are good and serve other people.
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And then we.
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There’s also what we had called it a recreation mandate which was, in light of the resurrection and God making all things new.
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How do we engage with our world to set things right?
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And how do we serve people to address their needs?
00:18:53
Whether those are are physical or spiritual or relational or psychological?
00:18:57
And so if I think about those kind of two broad categories, how does how does hydroponic farming fit into?
00:19:05
I’ll admit sometimes it’s hard to see how it does.
00:19:08
The creation mandate feels pretty obvious because you know it started in a garden and I’m essentially gardening right and so so growing plants that people eat.
00:19:20
Those are called vegetables.
00:19:21
Right, yeah, thank you.
00:19:22
Right?
00:19:24
We’ll put that in the show notes.
00:19:25
Yes, thank you right.
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Link to Wikipedia vegetables.
00:19:30
You know, being able to to grow excellent quality food for my neighbors is sort of, I think, part of what humanity was always intended to do.
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Take this world and and draw goodness out of it and give it to other people.
00:19:46
So I think it certainly it does that and it’s it’s good for me to remember that.
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That the work.
00:19:52
Is good just because that is that is what?
00:19:54
It is we’re growing food.
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For our neighbors, that’s great.
00:19:58
On the on, the kind of the recreation mandate side of things.
00:20:02
I see it probably a couple different ways.
00:20:04
One, something that really motivated me to want to start a business is that it creates opportunities to interact with a bunch of different kinds of people.
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Then maybe you normally would.
00:20:17
Whether that’s our customers or our vendors, the UPS delivery driver that comes by once a week to drop.
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Of our pest control things, but primarily it’s it’s our staff so the team that we are building those are.
00:20:34
Those are the opportunities for real relationship, especially with a business of 6-7 people. It’s not hard to kind of have more.
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Personal interactions with folks and so getting to know them and what’s going on in their life and what’s hard and.
00:20:54
A business can support them, and a business can’t support them in every every way that they have needs, but it can support them in some ways, especially as people have needs with their families and and you know, we we provide a living for people’s families.
00:21:08
Yeah, I mean I was going to say even just by.
00:21:09
Nature of providing employment is huge, yeah?
00:21:11
Right, right, yeah?
00:21:13
And then on and on on the actual growing side, something that’s really important to us is that we grow pesticide free herbicide free, so we’re when we’re talking about setting wrong things, right?
00:21:24
The pesticide and herbicide business has has said a lot of things wrong and some of that stuff is pretty dangerous and I don’t know if I’d recommend eating a whole bunch of things with that size and size now.
00:21:33
I do eat some things with pesticides on every side, so I’m not like a anti modern science kind of guy because they do solve a lot of problems, but I don’t think they need to be used all the time and so we are trying to grow without them in an effort to provide something safe and clean and healthy for our neighbors.
00:21:53
Yeah, that’s really.
00:21:56
So you guys moved here.
00:21:58
You said five years ago, yeah, and you found Antioch pretty quick somewhat quickly, maybe?
00:22:05
Yeah, probably in the first six months or six months, yeah?
00:22:06
Yeah, so how did that?
00:22:09
How did that happen?
00:22:09
I mean, you kind of sounds like you know when you moved to Pittsburgh you already had one experience of like a new city.
00:22:15
Yeah, time to create your recreate yourself, but you were single then and you know you you really didn’t know anybody this time.
00:22:17
Right?
00:22:21
Fail hard.
00:22:22
Yeah, you move as a unit and you have jobs.
00:22:24
Right?
00:22:25
Already and that kind of thing, yeah, well, sort.
00:22:27
Of yeah yeah.
00:22:29
So, So what was that like?
00:22:32
Rachel and I have talked about this a little bit on other podcasts and just in conversation, but.
00:22:36
Talk about like finding a church, finding a church home, why Antioch and I don’t mean this as like.
00:22:42
Just a pat on the.
00:22:42
Back but but what drew you to to Antioch?
00:22:44
Yeah, well, it’s not all Pats on the back.
00:22:46
I am going to point out that you both right now both Coley and Joel are wearing Antioch hoodies right now, so very much they’re ripping ripping Antioch tonight.
00:22:56
Yeah, if anyone drives by and actually looks in this window, it probably is very confusing.
00:23:02
UM?
00:23:04
How did we find Antioch?
00:23:05
So we found Antioch on the Internet.
00:23:08
When you search churches in Minneapolis, it’s got great SEO.
00:23:11
John will be very.
00:23:11
Happy to hear that.
00:23:12
Yes, yes.
00:23:14
So it’s it’s right at the top of that list.
00:23:16
John Wadja does great things for our website that helps people find our church for sure.
00:23:20
He does thank you very much, John.
00:23:24
So we it was one of probably a handful of churches that we visited in those first several months.
00:23:30
And we were.
00:23:30
The best one.
00:23:31
Yeah, you were the best one eventually.
00:23:33
Ohh, I’m kidding.
00:23:34
I’m kidding.
00:23:35
There’s so many good.
00:23:35
Churches in Minneapolis.
00:23:38
The the story of.
00:23:41
The first time we came, though, was a little underwhelming.
00:23:47
I think it was, I forget what was going on that Sunday.
00:23:49
Something was going on.
00:23:50
Antioch was commissioning a member of their church to go out and start a new church plan.
00:23:55
In a different.
00:23:56
State yes.
00:23:57
And so it was probably just a little like somber that day that ants.
00:24:01
That’s right, someone someone was leaving.
00:24:01
Yeah, because there was like a gospel goodbye happening that day, yeah?
00:24:05
Yes, yes, that’s right.
00:24:07
So someone was you guys were sending out David Moores is that was that his name?
00:24:17
No one talked to us.
00:24:18
That’s just basically what happened.
00:24:19
Don’t know which is.
00:24:20
So strange looking back now on that.
00:24:22
Right it totally fluky what we did love is that we heard the gospel clearly proclaimed that morning and we’re like, well, that’s that’s really great.
00:24:31
There you hydrate count.
00:24:32
Right, Jesus was right at the center of that service.
00:24:38
And so we were like that was. That was pretty encouraging, but I don’t. I don’t know if no one’s gonna talk to us. Can we really go?
00:24:44
To this church ohh man.
00:24:46
So we then progressed or proceeded to visit other churches.
00:24:51
We ended up going somewhere for a few months and then kind of.
00:24:58
Probably what we experienced at Antioch with the gospel centeredness of it we were missing in some of the other churches that that we were visiting, at least in, in a way that we needed at the time.
00:25:10
And so we decided.
00:25:10
Well, maybe we should at least go back and give Antioch another shot, because we know at least the gospel will be taught there in in a way.
00:25:19
That’s helpful.
00:25:20
So we did and I think Rachel had been praying that morning that if this was the church for us, maybe somebody could talk.
00:25:28
To us
00:25:29
That would help.
00:25:29
See see if you could you know make that happen God.
00:25:32
Ohh my word.
00:25:34
And so we’re still meeting at the Ukrainian Event Center and we pulled into the parking lot.
00:25:41
And we stepped out of our car and immediately somebody yelled across the parking lot.
00:25:47
Hey Pennsylvania, because we still had Pennsylvania plates on our car and it was Dan Moose who.
00:25:50
Oh nice.
00:25:53
So it wasn’t hey Pennsylvania, it was hey Pennsylvania.
00:25:54
Was it was?
00:25:56
That’s right, that’s right.
00:25:59
So so.
00:26:00
And with his Western Pennsylvania ties was excited to see our Pennsylvania plates, and so we talked to the mooses as we walked into the building.
00:26:09
And then.
00:26:10
We were greeted by a.
00:26:11
Very friendly hospitality team.
00:26:14
I think we talked to you.
00:26:15
Coley think we talked to.
00:26:17
5 to 10 other people that morning.
00:26:20
We were moving into a new apartment that week and I remember multiple people were like when we mentioned that we were moving into a new apartment.
00:26:27
They’re like, do you need help moving?
00:26:28
We can help you move.
00:26:28
That’s right, that’s.
00:26:29
I was like I just met you.
00:26:31
You’re very nice though, yeah?
00:26:34
And also we don’t have any.
00:26:35
Stuff, so we’re we’re probably OK.
00:26:37
But thank you for that very kind offer.
00:26:39
Yeah, so it definitely felt like an answer to prayer. Yeah, and and again we like Andy’s preaching that that Sunday morning was.
00:26:41
That’s hilarious.
00:26:50
Right on point like it always was with with Jesus right at the center of it.
00:26:54
So that wasn’t the fluke, but the.
00:26:58
The friendliness the the weird situation that we walked into the first time was abnormal.
00:27:01
Yes, you know, I’m always that’s so funny Rachel, I don’t think you’ve ever told when you talk about your first Sunday at Antioch.
00:27:08
You tell the moose.
00:27:09
Probably the move story.
00:27:09
Story see this is.
00:27:10
Yeah, that’s true.
00:27:11
So that feels like my first true like Antioch experience.
00:27:15
I tell it.
00:27:15
Like this, no, you’re this is so good here because I actually have.
00:27:19
I thought you know.
00:27:20
Cause like the.
00:27:20
In the life of a church you have weird Sundays, like yeah, great Sundays where it’s like baptisms and ohh this is the best day ever.
00:27:22
Yeah, for sure that’s right.
00:27:26
Let’s you know hi, new people fun yay. And then there’s days where it’s like ohh we just had to announce something really hard right or something sad or we’re leaving someone’s leaving or you know there’s grief to announce or something like.
00:27:41
And on those Sundays, I’m always like who’s new, who’s new, and.
00:27:45
I I usually end up saying I’m sorry this is not normally.
00:27:50
We’re kind of a downer today, but like.
00:27:52
Please come back.
00:27:54
But I think that first experience, and knowing that you know having a welcoming church to walk into and.
00:28:01
How much that does have an impact on people?
00:28:05
Did I think have an impact on us into when we started serving at Antioch where we wanted to serve?
00:28:11
Yeah, because you.
00:28:12
I mean you guys started serving as greeters.
00:28:14
That was kind of your first Ave right for ministry so to speak on Sunday.
00:28:17
I think that’s right, yeah?
00:28:21
And eventually you led that team for a while, and now you’re just just.
00:28:26
But now you’re on it, but not leading.
00:28:27
Yeah no.
00:28:27
Stand the door and smile and.
00:28:29
Yeah, just look.
00:28:30
Try to make sure that nobody gets through.
00:28:31
Without being talked to there you go, yeah?
00:28:34
And then just but then just recently some roles have changed.
00:28:37
I mean, Rachel came on staff a couple years ago, which has been awesome.
00:28:40
We’re a big fan of you bringing.
00:28:41
Her thank you.
00:28:43
Happy to.
00:28:44
Help and then thank you for following God’s called the hydroponics and whatever happens with that, you can’t go anywhere.
00:28:50
Because we need.
00:28:51
Rachel, I think it was mostly to bring Rachel to Antioch.
00:28:54
The hydroponics thing was just a side.
00:28:56
Tangent thank God brought us here for Antioch.
00:28:57
Hey So what got used?
00:28:59
I’d buy it fine with it.
00:29:00
Yeah, I’m not mad, uh?
00:29:04
But now you’ve recently taken on a number of other roles that we sort of mentioned already, but you are now the Treasurer on the finance team.
00:29:12
I am.
00:29:13
And you are our newest elder on the elder team.
00:29:17
Talk about those rules a.
00:29:18
Little bit what?
00:29:21
You definitely were not volunteered for those.
00:29:23
Those were those were choices of your own voice.
00:29:27
But what made you say yes to those roles and what makes you?
00:29:31
There’s a lot of ways I could that I could imagine answering the what makes you apprehensive about those things, but what makes you excited about those roles?
00:29:38
Or yeah.
00:29:40
What makes you?
00:29:40
Want to do those?
00:29:40
Yeah, so so I started as the treasurer first by a few months.
00:29:46
So I’ve been on the finance team at Antioch.
00:29:49
For a few years I was actually the Treasurer and bookkeeper at our church in Pennsylvania, so I think I’ve been chatting with Ryan Schreck, who was the Treasurer a while back about that and he said, oh, you should be on the finance team so that that seems like a reasonable place to serve.
00:30:04
So I’ve been doing that for a while.
00:30:06
There had been some transition on the finance team.
00:30:13
I guess it was this summer as Matt and Andy announced that they were transitioning out, and Nate Crampy, who was the Treasurer and an elder, was suddenly very, very heavily loaded.
00:30:26
The the elder team had a lot of work to do, so they were.
00:30:30
They were really busy and I was just.
00:30:33
Asking as as a member of the finance team.
00:30:35
Hey Nate, how can we?
00:30:36
How can we help?
00:30:37
What do you need?
00:30:40
And you know it had sort of been in the back of my mind.
00:30:43
Like maybe Nate needs to actually be able to focus and step out of the Treasurer role.
00:30:48
But I I didn’t say that to Nate, but I had sent an e-mail to him saying how how can we help and he responded in about a day saying like hey, you.
00:30:57
Want to be treasurer?
00:31:00
All right?
00:31:02
Sure, yeah, so I.
00:31:06
I do love finances.
00:31:08
I love spreadsheets a lot.
00:31:11
I do.
00:31:12
I mean, I basically run my entire business on spreadsheets.
00:31:14
It’s they’re just so fun.
00:31:15
They’re so powerful, they’re amazing.
00:31:17
I would love to do a spreadsheets class at Antioch do.
00:31:20
We do that.
00:31:20
We do spreadsheets class.
00:31:21
I don’t know if.
00:31:22
That’s a course we’ll be offering, but.
00:31:24
Your spiritual gifts is excel, yes.
00:31:29
How you can excel in the gospel might be.
00:31:32
A class wow is terrible.
00:31:32
It hurts.
00:31:32
It hurts me so much, no.
00:31:37
That is not what it’s.
00:31:38
Going to be called.
00:31:41
So I.
00:31:44
So with the treasure roll I I wanted basically to help.
00:31:48
However, I could, especially in this time of of leadership transition and that seemed like a natural fit for my experience in my in my some of my giftings.
00:31:59
What excites me about the treasure roll is that.
00:32:03
One, it’s not.
00:32:05
I don’t know that people get excited about finances, is I?
00:32:08
I think I’m a little bit unique there.
00:32:10
I know there’s.
00:32:11
Probably people listening that also get excited about finances, and that’s wonderful.
00:32:15
And if so, you should talk to Joel about joining the finance team.
00:32:17
I would.
00:32:18
That’s right, the finance team is the place for you.
00:32:21
But I think being able to communicate how our finances are a tool for advancing God’s Kingdom is a real opportunity, and it kind of fits with some of my giftings around teaching and discernment. Hopefully being able to explain some things that.
00:32:40
Engage people in a way that maybe they hadn’t heard it explained before.
00:32:45
And and I’ll say, I thought you did a great job of that at your first kind of stepping into that type of a role with the budget meeting a couple of weeks ago.
00:32:55
We were homesick, but Rachel was kind enough to stream it and so we were able to to watch that way and I thought, yeah, I thought it was great, just the way.
00:33:05
You reminded everyone of like OK if you don’t know, here’s the baseline like here’s what church finances are.
00:33:12
And it occurred to me that.
00:33:14
I was like, Oh yeah, there’s probably not people that are.
00:33:18
There’s probably members that aren’t.
00:33:19
Starting with that base, yeah, not from any fault of their own, it’s just sometimes you just assume things and then they never get said you know.
00:33:23
Right?
00:33:28
But then I I just thought, yeah, I just thought the way you presented it was really, really great and you could tell.
00:33:35
You actually do find this fun and you do enjoy it.
00:33:38
I it’s true, yes.
00:33:39
It wasn’t just a face you were putting on, you know.
00:33:44
Yeah, I think I mean finances.
00:33:46
Oftentimes you know, money is the root of all kinds of evil, and so with the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
00:33:51
The love of money it is.
00:33:52
And so and so.
00:33:54
But what I said, what I misspoke that first time is what we’ve often been taught is that money is evil, right?
00:33:59
And so money at churches is sort of a necessary evil.
00:34:01
Like of course we have to pay for.
00:34:04
But like we don’t want to talk about money too much and and we certainly don’t want to kind of guilt and shame people into giving us their money.
00:34:13
And so sometimes it just kind of becomes a hush.
00:34:15
Hush topic yeah, when in fact.
00:34:16
But I think.
00:34:17
Because we have yes, and we have seen unfortunately, like in our society some churches and prosperity gospel that has taken that to extremes and has really diluted like the waters but.
00:34:17
They these are gas resources.
00:34:35
Just because some people don’t handle it well or allow like sinful selfishness to get involved with finances, doesn’t mean that that’s.
00:34:44
What church finances in general are, yeah.
00:34:47
Yeah, I.
00:34:47
I mean, I really like viewing the the money that the church has as.
00:34:55
The opportunities that God has given us this is this is how he is.
00:35:00
So I I like to say right, I if you catch me saying it you gotta call me on it.
00:35:04
I don’t like to say that God has given us this money to you.
00:35:08
I like to say he hasn’t trusted this money to us.
00:35:11
It’s it’s a little bit more of like an investment mindset where he is invested.
00:35:15
This money in us that we go out and put it to you.
00:35:17
Choose and and have a return, which is a little bit of a businessy way of of understanding it, but it also.
00:35:23
Aligns with some.
00:35:24
Parables that use this talk, yeah, I.
00:35:25
Was going to say.
00:35:26
It sounds like the parable of the talents.
00:35:27
Yeah, and so when we look at our finances and our budget, hopefully we can look at a piece of paper and see what God is kind of handing to us so that we can do his work.
00:35:41
If the goal is to be and, and thankfully we’re sitting in a situation right now where we aren’t trying to recover from.
00:35:48
You know severe unfaithfulness with our finances or something like that.
00:35:51
Right?
00:35:51
We were kind of in a tight spot, but so was everybody.
00:35:53
Sure, yeah.
00:35:54
During during the COVID years, and now we’re OK, you know.
00:35:59
We’re we’re OK.
00:36:00
We’re sustainable.
00:36:01
We’re sustainable.
00:36:02
We’re not closing.
00:36:03
Doesn’t but.
00:36:05
If if our finances are.
00:36:08
Maybe the representation or like how we live on our vision.
00:36:14
What would you want to see?
00:36:16
Like a year from.
00:36:16
Now in the finances that would tell you.
00:36:20
We are more aligned with our vision.
00:36:23
Than we were a year ago.
00:36:27
That is an interesting question.
00:36:30
I probably I’m not sure that I would be able to see it in the finances.
00:36:36
I would hope to see it in the fruit of the body.
00:36:40
I would hope to see.
00:36:42
Change lives people growing deeper in their relationship with Christ and I would hope.
00:36:50
That there would be at least some discernible connection between what we invested our finances in and how that discipleship happened.
00:37:02
If there aren’t that connection, then we need to evaluate why we’re spending our money on those things, and maybe try to identify what it is that caused that that help these people grow and pour more fuel on that fire rather than.
00:37:16
You know, burning the dollar bills?
00:37:17
Themselves, sure, yeah.
00:37:20
So to say like well, we we put a lot of money into this kind of training or this kind of opportunity or this kind of ministry like and look at the fruit that came out.
00:37:28
Of that, let’s lean into.
00:37:29
That more sure.
00:37:30
Yeah, how we assess that I think is a little bit of a mystery.
00:37:34
More of an art maybe than.
00:37:34
But yeah.
00:37:35
A science yeah.
00:37:38
But I think that’s the work of leadership, right?
00:37:43
Eldership is very different for like as far as like a calling you talked a little bit about like your giftings and how you kind of came into the role as treasurer.
00:37:53
But what did that look like as far as becoming an elder, how did that process start?
00:37:58
Why does being an elder excite you?
00:38:02
Yeah, it is definitely very different and and.
00:38:07
Probably more stretching for me because it’s not quite in my kind of wheelhouse of natural skill sets, and I think it is in.
00:38:14
My spiritual giftings, but maybe not quite so much in my experiences, so it’s definitely an area of growth, so I think it probably again started with.
00:38:27
Kind of a desire to make myself as useful as possible.
00:38:31
I wanted to serve.
00:38:32
I saw that our congregation had needs.
00:38:36
And he’d already been serving as a community group leader too, yeah?
00:38:38
Right, so I’ve already been leading our community group for about three years, which is honestly kind of like an under shepherd in our in our congregation, and so there is that shepherding and and kind of pastoral care aspect to Community group leadership.
00:38:57
And so again, our Community group had done some work on spiritual gifts and identifying those and and people encouraging others in the group and how they might use them within the body.
00:39:07
And it had it had sort of been suggested that leadership and discerning and and wisdom were kind of where I landed, and so it.
00:39:17
It did seem like eldership was kind of a natural fit for some of those while also being maybe an unnatural fit for my experiences, and so it did feel a little bit.
00:39:31
Not outright nervous, but sort of, you know.
00:39:35
Price some level of inadequate, honestly.
00:39:40
But the the Elders asked if I would consider it, so I did.
00:39:46
And it it did seem like there was enough alignment there between my gifts and their needs, and my kind of.
00:39:57
Love for this congregation.
00:39:59
Basically that it was a way that I was willing to serve.
00:40:03
So what excites me about it?
00:40:10
So I think the job of an elder is is a couple of things.
00:40:13
It’s to teach our body the word of God.
00:40:17
To discern where the Holy Spirit is leading our congregation, and then to.
00:40:24
Chase after that in a way that draws other people with me, which is leadership.
00:40:32
And so I mean already it.
00:40:34
I’ve been an elder for I don’t know a month and a half two months.
00:40:38
Something like that.
00:40:40
And I I will say it has driven me to prayer like nothing in my life.
00:40:45
I’m just I feel like I’m just praying all the time.
00:40:47
I don’t know what I’m doing.
00:40:49
I mean I’m trying trying to figure it out.
00:40:51
I’m trying to do it wisely and.
00:40:56
With love as the motivation, but I think we all know that love is not always our motivation when we do things and so I feel again very needy and very dependent.
00:41:07
But I do love this congregation.
00:41:09
I do love the people here and I want to see them grow in Christ.
00:41:13
And I want to see them.
00:41:17
Excited about his mission and the work that he’s doing in this world of redeeming creation and redeeming fallen people.
00:41:24
And so I hope to lead us towards that.
00:41:29
So with that love for the body, obviously you’ve mentioned the ways that you serve the body at Antioch.
00:41:36
But you’re also part of that body.
00:41:38
How do you feel like you are ministered to or served by the body at Antioch as well?
00:41:44
Yeah, that’s a good question.
00:41:45
That’s a question I like to.
00:41:47
I want to ask everybody at Antioch.
00:41:53
What are the ways that we are most cared for by our congregation?
00:41:57
For me, I mean, our Community group comes right to mind like that is kind of the context that I am deeply known and cared for and challenged and encouraged.
00:42:09
Sorry that you said I feel challenged because.
00:42:10
I love.
00:42:12
It’s it’s good.
00:42:14
For those of us that know Joel, he is the challenger.
00:42:17
I’m pretty sure on the enneagram like it literally says the challenger.
00:42:21
But like you’ve mentioned to me before, like having a context in which people can challenge you back in love and against the truth of the gospel is is so good.
00:42:31
And I know that’s been so encouraging to you.
00:42:33
Yeah, it’s definitely probably the one of the primary ways.
00:42:36
That I grow.
00:42:38
Is kind of being being called on.
00:42:40
Stuff and challenged to rethink and and.
00:42:47
Honestly, crucify the flesh and pursue the spirit.
00:42:53
So yes, I do.
00:42:53
I do like to be challenged and I think that that happens in our Community group and.
00:42:57
I’m very thankful for that.
00:42:58
Yeah, well and I I will just say to you like I.
00:43:00
Appreciate that about you because.
00:43:02
It’s quite common to have someone who.
00:43:05
Is not afraid too challenged, but can’t handle being challenged.
00:43:09
So to be able.
00:43:11
To take what you can dish.
00:43:12
So to speak is like.
00:43:14
Very, very healthy.
00:43:16
And appreciated otherwise because they only have one side of the coin.
00:43:20
Yeah, and and destructive.
00:43:23
Yeah yes yes.
00:43:24
Evers yeah.
00:43:25
I was.
00:43:27
You mentioned the budget meeting quality.
00:43:29
I was half I joked with Joel a little bit before of like should I put plants in the audience?
00:43:35
Sorry plants.
00:43:37
Like what should I put?
00:43:38
Or should I plant people in the audience to like, be annoying and ask a lot of questions?
00:43:43
Because historically, even before Joel was on the flight, I’m pretty sure even before we were members, we attended a finance team meeting just so.
00:43:51
That, like we sat in the front row.
00:43:54
Said non members could come that was on them.
00:43:55
Yep, and you asked questions that are really at least super annoying to Ryan Shrek our Treasurer at that time and historically, since I think because you love finances and are passionate about how churches steward our finances like you do, ask a lot of questions that could come across as annoying sometimes to treasures but.
00:43:56
And you shut up.
00:44:12
They’re good, and so I was like, oh man at this last budget meeting like now’s his chance, like his turn like people are gonna ask questions they didn’t and I was actually, I thought that was really great though.
00:44:19
The congregation did not hold back, they they they let me have their questions and I was very appreciative.
00:44:25
As a family, we can challenge and we can ask questions and thought that was good for sure.
00:44:27
Yeah, absolutely.
00:44:28
And now I’m thinking harder about certain parts of the budget that I had not thought about quite as hard because people ask questions that I was like, Oh yeah, we should have.
00:44:36
Thought about more of the implications on how that’s going to play itself out, and so there’s already more work to be done, so I.
00:44:43
I appreciate it.
00:44:44
That’s cool though.
00:44:45
I love that but and I think you said this during the budget meeting.
00:44:48
It’s like no budget is going to be perfect in like the comprehensive sense.
00:44:52
Yeah yeah.
00:44:53
But yeah, every every year you do, you do one.
00:44:56
Now you’re going to.
00:44:57
Tweak and yeah.
00:44:58
Solve those problems and inevitably create new ones and.
00:45:00
You know, but.
00:45:05
So yeah, being elder being an elder, having led you to prayer because you don’t know what.
00:45:09
You’re doing.
00:45:12
And coming in as an elder right now is interesting because we are pastoralists.
00:45:20
We have pastor Darius.
00:45:21
That’s not fair.
00:45:21
We aren’t pastoralists because all the elders are pastors really in a sense, but.
00:45:26
Changeable words, I believe.
00:45:27
Exactly in the Greek, but.
00:45:29
I don’t know how to speak Greek Greek.
00:45:32
It’s fine, it’s just English is enough.
00:45:34
Complicated enough, uh?
00:45:38
But you’re coming in.
00:45:39
At at a busy point, at A at a high stress high need a a lot of expectations going on for the elders so.
00:45:48
What would you?
00:45:50
If you could sit down with every single member of.
00:45:52
Antioch or attendee?
00:45:54
What would you want to tell them?
00:45:58
What would you want to ask?
00:45:59
Of them.
00:46:02
I think I think I would want to remind our body that we.
00:46:07
I think it was Luther or Calvin one of these reformer guys coined the the phrase the priesthood of all believers and this comes out of I think, first Peter.
00:46:15
Two, we are a chosen nation of royal priesthood.
00:46:19
We don’t have priests.
00:46:20
Jesus is our high priest and we are all priests in the church, meaning that we mediate the gospel.
00:46:27
To the world and to each other.
00:46:30
And so we are not.
00:46:33
We are not without that, we still have that we are all that, and so we all continue to do the work of the gospel both within the body of Antioch and out in the world.
00:46:44
With that said, I do think leadership is important and so.
00:46:50
I think that question that you asked me earlier.
00:46:51
Rachel is the question that I would ask everyone is like how are you most cared for and what do you need from the people who have been tasked with shepherding.
00:46:59
And caring for you.
00:47:03
But yeah, I think I I would want to give that encouragement that we aren’t.
00:47:07
There is a little bit of a period of waiting that we’re in, but we’re not passively waiting. We are still doing God’s work and pursuing his mission and preaching his gospel to his world to draw his people to him.
00:47:24
So I would want to kind of spur us on a little bit, you know, let’s let’s keep let’s keep at it.
00:47:29
Keep doing it.
00:47:33
Sounds like a good.
00:47:33
Word yeah, I think Rachel and I were just talking this afternoon about how sometimes because we we kind of decided.
00:47:40
Maybe it’s because we are in every.
00:47:42
Conversation that happens just about in.
00:47:44
The church.
00:47:46
That that gosh, we feel like.
00:47:47
We’re talking about this transition time all the time, you know.
00:47:52
Oh hey, well we don’t have a lead pastor or while we’re in the season of transition or in the season of change or well, whatever it is.
00:47:59
But I think we partially realize that we’re hearing it exponentially more because we are on staff and in all of those conversations.
00:48:08
Whereas maybe the average person only talks about it or hears it just briefly mentioned on the Sunday morning.
00:48:13
You know in passing, and maybe it comes up in Community group.
00:48:17
Like if there’s something relevant that’s been talked about that we.
00:48:20
But but I do think you’re right that in this coming season.
00:48:27
That it’s not just like a put on the brakes and wait until we have a leader again, like there’s a lot to do, and there’s a lot of people that need Jesus that we can reach in the meantime.
00:48:40
Yeah, and I mean I say this to people all the time, like.
00:48:44
Antioch is not just the organization, Antioch, or just the staff, like I is Antioch.
00:48:50
You is Antioch.
00:48:51
We all are Antioch, right?
00:48:53
Are those all new shirts?
00:48:54
I is Antioch.
00:48:56
I is not English teacher, I mean.
00:49:00
Mostly because it’s like the the church body.
00:49:03
It’s not just a a pastor.
00:49:06
Yeah, we all are members of the body, and I mean I think.
00:49:11
Paul even puts it as talking about, like you know the the.
00:49:14
I can’t say to the toe like you’re not as important.
00:49:17
We are all.
00:49:18
Members that can serve and love one another and like you said you’ll draw others in.
00:49:23
To the beauty of the gospel, and even though the the phrase season of transition might be as grating on me now.
00:49:31
As unprecedented times was in 2020, it is good to acknowledge that it is a different time. But even as we do, look forward to the good that God has in store with a new lead shepherd, we can still be about that good work together right now.
00:49:50
I have told many people this might be part of the reason why they asked me to be elder.
00:49:55
I don’t know.
00:49:56
Maybe I love change.
00:49:58
I’m one of these weirdos that love change.
00:50:01
I think seasons of transition are refining they.
00:50:06
They help us focus and clarify where we’re going and why.
00:50:09
We’re going there.
00:50:11
And so it’s not like it’s not like.
00:50:14
We were dead or.
00:50:15
Dying or stagnate or anything, but a transition gives us this opportunity to to kind of laser focus back in on on where we’re headed, and so that gets me pumped up and I don’t know.
00:50:28
If it does for everybody but.
00:50:29
Yeah, I don’t think you have to apologize for that because I think it actually helps the people that are maybe more reticent to say.
00:50:35
Oh no, you’re right.
00:50:36
OK, OK, there are good things like I or there’s there’s reasons to have.
00:50:39
Hope here or there’s.
00:50:40
You know, no, that’s awesome.
00:50:42
Well thank you you guys for letting me come over and crash your evening and thank you Joel for giving of of an hour of extemporaneous speaking you.
00:50:50
Did great for an introvert.
00:50:52
Ohh wonderful, yes thank you go curl up and go to.
00:50:52
This was fine.
00:50:56
Bed no, you have to tell me about all your emotions tonight.
00:50:59
Ah, please save it for tomorrow.
00:51:01
What’s your feeling?
00:51:01
Yeah, OK, possibly.
00:51:04
Oh wait, word.
00:51:05
Well before we go I just want to remind people of a couple of things.
00:51:09
I am still looking for recordings from children’s children retelling the Christmas story, so if they’re older and can read, let’s get recordings of them reading Luke Chapter 2 or the Christmas story from one of their children’s Bibles, Jesus, story of Bible board book. I don’t care if they’re younger.
00:51:29
Ask questions.
00:51:31
Hey, what did the angels sing?
00:51:33
Or who saw the angels or who was in the Manger with baby Jesus and and what did those animals sound like or that kind of thing?
00:51:42
Whatever it is, get a recording of your kids doing that and send it to me, colate, Antioch, community.org, or e-mail it to me or or text it to me, I mean.
00:51:52
And we are going to make a supercut of kids telling the Christmas story and we’ll put that on the podcast and make sure that the whole church can can hear it in one way or another.
00:52:02
I think that’s it for announcements.
00:52:04
Other than that, yeah, thank you again.
00:52:06
Zakar AKA Ryan Maher for the music.
00:52:09
And we’ll see you.
00:52:09
Next time have a great week Antioch.