Life in the City: Creativity

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00:00:01

Well, everybody, it happened.

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We have had technical difficulties and we actually lost a portion of the recording for this episode.

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Now we’ve been able to salvage it by the fact that we had multiple microphones in the room, but it is not up to our usual.

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Sound quality goals.

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It is still listenable, I promise you.

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And we especially wanted to keep it because Bryce just had some great insights regarding creativity.

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So we do hope you enjoy it, but if it sounds weird in your ears, it’s not just you and we have it figured out already.

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For the next time, and Lord willing, this won’t happen again.

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But please enjoy our discussion of our core value here at Antioch on creativity.

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Welcome.

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To the life in the city podcast from Antioch Community Church in Northeast Minneapolis, where we explore what it looks like to be a loving family inviting all people into the life changing way of Jesus Christ.

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We’re glad you’re here.

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Well, welcome back everybody, to another edition of life in the City podcast from Antioch Community Church.

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I’m Coley Waataja.

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And I’m Rachel Love.

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And we are back again.

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With pastoral residents Bryce Langley.

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They let me back on.

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Partly his job, but.

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One of us.

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One of one of many.

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Chief Cook and bottle washer.

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Yeah, last last.

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Week we talked about how all Haxi work, so this now is podcast co-host I.

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Think is is another one.

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Yeah, I like the 20, yeah.

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You guys, how was how’s Eureka anything fun or interesting happened?

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No, and I kind of was really excited about that.

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And not going to lie.

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What about you, Carla?

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Uhm, well, Sunday was full.

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I was able to fill in for kids church.

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I didn’t have to teach, but I was just like the.

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Second person in.

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There and Sam Shriner showed Sam Trainer, one of our community leaders and amazing.

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Yes, amazing teacher to kindergarten second.

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Grade and they.

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Are all boys minus one one?

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Alright, I won’t shout out names.

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’cause, I haven’t talked.

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Any appearance for promotion?

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But uhm.

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So adorable and just a riot.

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And yeah, second grade boys are just hilarious.

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You can’t unhear what second grade boys say it’s it sticks with you.

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Having been one, I can say this is true.

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Just arrived.

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Yeah, but so we have our system here at Antioch where the teachers rotate so they’re not, they don’t miss Church every Sunday, ’cause.

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We only want service.

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And so Sam was asking them.

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Like, hey, what did?

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You guys talk about.

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Last week and we use this program.

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This curriculum called the Gospel Project and it’s incredible.

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It’s it’s.

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I think it’s produced by.

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Lifeway but they.

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The whole point is that every.

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Single Sunday points back to Jesus, but you go through the entire Bible and you over analytically, chronologically over the course of three years.

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So it’s just, it’s awesome.

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So he’s asking, there’s big timeline.

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On the wall and.

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Like, yeah, OK, so we’re here.

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Today tell me about last week I wasn’t.

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At your teacher, what did we cover?

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And one of the one of the boys.

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Raises their hand all confidently.

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Because what? Sam asked.

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Is what’s in this picture.

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There is something very bright gold on a cart.

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And had angels with wings, and there were polls.

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Maybe you’re you know you’re you’re picturing right now.

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And so, Sam asked, he said.

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What is this?

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And one of the.

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Boys versus hand.

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Because I.

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Know I know I.

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Know that’s the Ark of the president.

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Ha ha ha.

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All of his.

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Parental and teacher.

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Wisdom just goes.

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It is the art.

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Of the covenant.

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Yeah, yeah. And it represents God’s presence.

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Way to go, Sam.

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Ark of the Covenant and God’s presence as the Ark of the president.

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I love how kids can just, like, hear certain things and stick with it.

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I think there was one time years back where I was teaching like a toddler or like preschool class, and we were talking about how God used Ravens to send send food to.

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I think it was a lie.

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And I remember at the end of parent picking up their kid and saying, So what did Miss Rachel teach you today?

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And he’s like, God you.

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God fed Elisha raisins.

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And I was like, oh, OK, Ravens raisins.

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God fed Elijah.

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That’s great.

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Question of like in that curriculum and maybe this is gonna come out of the wash a little bit like OK, I grew up watching Veggietales so I’m assuming like everybody else, so.

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I remember being a new Christian, and I had seen Dave and the giant pickle, right this is David and Goliath.

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And so, you know, obviously like, you know, it gets hit the head of the stone, you know, big pickle falls over until I actually went and read for Samuel 1516 and 17 and it’s like.

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He decapitates him.

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And I think to.

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Myself, how would we wreck on this and?

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Like put that in Veggietales does it like.

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The Stuart like Julie ending a pickle.

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Ha ha.

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So I kind of wonder how in the Lifeway curriculum they’re gonna go through like they tab into Baidu putting their mark on an ox carcass.

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Yeah, he’s like a sandwich spear now.

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He’s not full pickle anymore.

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Like a deli, sacker.

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All right.

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That surprised me.

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That was hilarious.

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Ah, yeah, he’s just.

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A complemented Uncle Frankie’s now.

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And if you talk about big battles, I mean, they turn him into relish at that.

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Point so Oh my gosh.

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And they relished in it.

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2nd we need one anti awkward moment every week.

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Yeah, sometimes we.

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Have multiple I’m not going to lot, yeah.

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Order count.

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Actually, it’s funny that you say that.

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Though ’cause the the.

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Previous week, it was the story of the Ark.

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Of covenant when?

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The philistines had.

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It and it sent it to every city and every city.

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Kept getting boils and sickness.

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And all this stuff and they were like.

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God send it back.

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So that was yeah, they celebrated his return on a cart.

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Oh, awesome.

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That wasn’t being led by anyone.

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But that was the Ark of the Covenant, not the art of the president.

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I’m just picturing like Air Force One now, like with gold wings, like flying.

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Through the air.

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And this somehow like.

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Make this a meme and put it on.

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The Instagram page.

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The President, someone will think.

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It’s actually a political post, so.

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Oh yeah, actually, let’s not do that.

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The things our kids come up with, I love it.

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We’ll shout out to you and Sam Shriner for like, rolling with that and just propelling forward with what the Ark of the Covenant is.

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For sure.

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Yeah, well, Brice, you’re here again.

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Yes, I am here again.

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Last week we talked about one of our core values, which was a community living in organic community as a church.

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But this week we wanted to talk about creativity.

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Another one of our.

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Core values.

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But what made you?

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You were all about like, yes, I want to be a part of.

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This conversation.

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Yes, I did.

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Why did creativity kind of spark some joy to quote Marie Kondo in your life to talk about?

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That’s that’s a good quote.

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I like that one.

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You know, it’s interesting because I’m not, you know, obviously Lane Swanson would shout out to her for her artwork.

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We’re going to be plugging one of her next shows coming up, so stay tuned.

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At the end, we’re going to be doing that.

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And obviously don’t be worship because I’m about as musically inclined as a rock.

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Although I mean Speaking of rock, immortally workshed.

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And you would have probably the most epic metal worship set.

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Oh, there be breakdowns.

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There be mosh pits.

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I mean, it would be.

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I mean, go to a Christian metal show and experience it.

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It’s fun.

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The closest I’ve gotten this is probably not metal at all, but I remember in college one time I went to a skillet concert.

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Like, their early albums go hard enough where I’d say that actually counts.

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I made the mistake of being like in the front row.

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So though, and the lead singer, I mean, he was so involved with his music and every time he would like, shake his head forward, like sweat would like come off of his hair.

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And I remember at multiple points, like, just getting his sweat in my face as he, like, shook his head and I was like, Nope, didn’t sign up for this.

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This is disgusting.

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And that’s the closest I’ve ever been.

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To any kind of ******** Christian music, so.

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Yeah, so that’s not really a reason at all.

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The music was going to come up.

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So you were just trying to get it out of the way?

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I thought I would.

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I’m rebanding really.

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But I think even actually like being a member and a participant in.

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That scene for as long as I have.

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Happen and thinking about Christians participating in it and then thinking a lot about the church existing, embodied in a host culture that has its own artistic sensibilities, its own principles from what makes good arts or how do we express creativity?

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How do we embody it?

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This is just one of those passion.

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Areas that I think.

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Uhm, maybe needs some renovation in American Christianity and maybe we’re going to get into that a little bit more.

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But that’s the the bitline for why I really wanted to be in on this ’cause I love that.

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Antiok committed to.

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That’s awesome.

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I love it.

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And just a reminder.

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For anybody that maybe hasn’t listened, go back and listen to the.

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One about truth, where?

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We talked at the beginning of it.

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We talked a lot.

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About what core values our core values are.

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Not the same as like our statement of faith.

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They are not necessarily.

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Like each a moral judgment that you.

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Know if you don’t have this core.

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You’re not a real church.

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They are more like personality.

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And they’re they’re unique to antiok now we’ve purposely put truth in pursuing God in the list because.

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We think it’s essential.

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And but other trees are going to have that.

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Expresses a different life.

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But this one is a great example of how.

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We we put community in our list because of.

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Who we are as a.

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Church, yeah, because we think.

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Every church should have the.

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Stated core value of creativity.

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There’s going to be ways churches are creative, but it’s just, it’s unique to Antioch.

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It’s not saying.

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It’s like a moral judgment, but.

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Every church should have it.

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Be the same level of priority.

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Right, so with that in.

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Mind, let me read the core value and then we.

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Can talk about it.

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We have been created in the image of God.

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As followers of Jesus, we.

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Are part of God cosmic work?

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Of redemption and new creation.

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We desire that our community be an expression.

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Of the creative.

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Work of redemption God is doing within and among us.

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Our goal is to utilize the diverse gifts and abilities God has given us to creatively.

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Engage people and culture with the gospel.

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So this is definitely a broader definition of creativity than than we might originally think.

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So how how you define creativity in the biblical sense or in?

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This kind of context.

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Yeah, there is a Instagram account.

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It’s called sword and pencil.

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I don’t know.

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You know either.

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You’re familiar with it.

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Maybe somebody who’s listening to this might be.

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But this is a yes.

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Say sorry.

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So this is a graphic designer who lives in, I believe Toronto, is a believer and does a lot of like kind of American traditional, you know, flash art type things.

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And there was a post that he had on there one day and it was these kind of.

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You know, Finland drawings of a bunch of hands that were holding like a baby bottle, a microphone, a.

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There were several of them.

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I think one of them was like a like a whisk or spatula and.

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Underneath it, it said all of it is worship.

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Oh yeah, and also Barber Clippers were on.

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Oh, that’s that spoke to you.

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There as well.

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Yeah, that spoke to me because you know.

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Shout out to Alex at Elizabeth Barber shop in.

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Saint Paul so this.

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Is an audio podcast but.

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Bryce has an incredible period.

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Although I will say I I.

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Was mistaken for John Cougar by one of Emily’s home churches youth group kids.

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Which I.

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Like thank you.

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For those who don’t know.

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Who is John Cooper, swing singer, Skillet?

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So thinking about Rachel getting spit.

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Impaired? It’s weird, so.

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See, I think what’s more dynamic about the biblical definition of creativity is that we’re not just talking about somebody who’s got a really thin wax mustache studied in Paris under Monet wears beret.

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Or who is necessarily like, you know, putting up a pop-up shop in our world, but that is something that we’re involved and we’ll probably get into that.

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In a few minutes.

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But I think.

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Because God created the world with a particular intentionality that he wasn’t doing this just out of a utilitarian necessity.

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Like, it’s just bland.

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It’s put up for the sake of, you know, being a structure that exists to serve something else.

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He did so with vibrancy, with color, with all of this kind of wonder.

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Which is why you and I can go to, like, you know, Rocky Mountain National Park or to even up at Voyageur in northern Minnesota.

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We can look out at Gooseberry Falls and say, Oh my goodness, like God is so much the best artist that I could ever envision or imagine.

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So in thinking about culture, making, about cultivating, I think a lot of outlets, you know, families in the way that they’re creating a culture, their own personalities, their own ways of doing things and raising kids and setting an atmosphere that is growing and developing little kids and even growing and developing.

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Marriages, but for those of you who are single, have roommates, you’re doing the.

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Exact same thing.

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For sure.

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College students listening to this you’re doing.

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Out in your dorm floors, so.

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Yeah, I mean it’s creativity really in its in its best form.

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Fosters community, yes, and that’s actually one of the reasons that it is in our.

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List is because we are located.

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One of the reasons it’s in our core value list is because we’re located in northeast Minneapolis, AKA The Arts District of Minneapolis, and we we also have creative people, but we knew that is going to be an issue.

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Or element of our mission here, right?

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And if we just overlook that, we’re going missing something.

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Yeah, but we also can come to that host culture as the tribute like, use.

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Uh, and it’s.

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Not originally, but yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it’s not original to.

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Me, I never recorded myself.

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But to say yeah, created creativity is art.

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But it’s so much more than that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So in what ways do you feel?

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Like our culture, our the world that we are in.

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Misses the mark on what God intends for creativity.

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Yeah, yeah.

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The term host culture I’ve heard from people like Mark Sayers and John Mark Comer for two pastoral figures respectively in Australia and then in Portland.

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We talked a lot about the interaction between the American Church to the host culture.

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Was had which.

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Has its own set of values, its own morals, its own compass and direction and vision for what that’s all pointing towards, you know, artistically.

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So there’s a really good podcast.

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I’m gonna recommend from a guy named Jordan Cooper who is a Lutheran minister, hosts a show called the Justice Center Podcast.

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I don’t. Maybe wouldn’t show.

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That I didn’t.

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Yeah, and one of the things that he talked.

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About in a Q.

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And A is that if you study arts from?

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Element Pre 1962, post 1960. So this is from basically modern or postmodern arts. A lot of modern artists.

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So especially we think of Picasso in his paintings.

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He was looking for something transcendent and even in the way that he talks about his art and what he was pursuing.

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He was looking for something way bigger than himself. And then in the 1960s especially, you can look in the American locale of the sexual revolution and a lot of philosophical change.

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Is art became not something that was actually looking for, for the transcendent or something higher or searching for truth?

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It became basically deconstructing, ripping apart for the sake of doing so.

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It became a a provocateur project, so, you know, reading the Bible.

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There’s a lot of things that we could pull out of the Old Testament in particular, like you read judges or you’re reading pleaseee asteas.

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Or even parts of like Ezekiel or Isaiah that if HBO syndicated it, it would be the censors.

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Yeah, for sure.

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And yes, that’s not the point of the authors.

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They’re not coming from this deconstructing postmodern sensibility to say let’s just put.

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This out there to.

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Be as as you as we possibly.

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And those are all unfortunate circumstances that are illustrative of something way bigger going on in the project of reconciliation, which is going to include darkness, it’s going to include violence, it’s going to include rivalries.

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So it’s the idea of a a composer.

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You know.

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You know, using minor keys and dark chords to writing shirt sort of thing.

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So I think that’s something that the host culture is committed to doing that.

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I think the church, though, shouldn’t necessarily just shy away from, you know, exploring the darker, heavier themes of.

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You know, being humid and discipleship, et cetera.

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It needs to be.

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Put in the context of we’re looking to something higher, bigger, greater and better than us that outshines darkness, right?

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You know one thing that.

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We have to recognize this like you’ve said this.

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A little bit is our our place in.

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It that God is the creator and we also can create.

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But we are never creating something out of nothing.

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We are taking other things and creating stuff, making stuff.

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And one of the ways that I think.

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People who don’t know Christ sometimes try to create it.

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Through deconstruction.

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It’s like trying to.

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Create nothing out of something.

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And in that in that way this.

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Backwards way I was like.

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I actually I want to be God, but I can’t exactly.

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So instead are going to destroy and say, look, I did a thing.

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Which is it’s taking the indictment that’s levied against Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 and sort of running it out to.

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The end of its tether, yeah.

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So yeah, maybe this would be the good stuff for Genesis 1, because that’s one of the passages that’s a part of our core values.

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So this is Genesis, chapter one, verses 26 and 27. Then God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the.

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Birds of the heavens.

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And over the livestock, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

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So God created man in his own image and the image of God.

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He created him male and female.

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He created them.

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So how does that speak to creativity?

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You know, I think about there’s a a memory that I had at college.

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I was a part of Intervarsity Christian Fellowship at Winona State University, and we had a pastor from a local Bible church that was unaffiliated with the SDA.

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He was doing kind of our large group lecture.

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And he I remember he said something to the effect of you.

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Know does it?

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Ever occur to you that like God?

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Actually has a sense of.

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Humor, like look.

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At the dump billed platypus or the.

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Way that an ostrich sticks its head in the sand and looks like a dingus.

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Or bacon, right? And I.

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I really chuckled because it never occurred to me that it’s like God is so much more dynamic of a God, because I think about especially how Yahweh was set apart from the polytheistic Pagan nations that Israel.

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Was living amongst, against and supposed to be?

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Set apart from.

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Because those Pagan gods.

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Were, you know, telling them creation stories about how you’re all cosmic accidents, you’re basically fallout from this war that we’re having.

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In the heavenlies.

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And we don’t have any other purpose, but for you to basically serve us on our terms and will.

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Punish you if.

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You devils.

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And yet our God, Yahweh, the one true God, said, I’m not going to create.

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Stay out of conflicts.

00:21:34

I’m going to create what we say in our FCA doctor index Nahi Leo, which means out of nothing.

00:21:41

It necessarily means there was a creative, deliberate intention behind what he put together because he wasn’t interested in just creating subjects that were going to bow to him and worship him.

00:21:52

Out of a fearful, you know, contrived, forced source, slavery.

00:21:58

So I think that those two verses right there are actually part of what sets Christianity in contrast to other philosophies that say we’re just kind of here a little bit on accident, there’s not a whole lot of meaning and purpose because God created us with purpose because he did.

00:22:18

So intentionally.

00:22:21

No that’s really great and I think as so then as believers as as made in the image of God with intention our our.

00:22:29

Goal is to.

00:22:30

Then or our mission is to then also be part of God’s big story of redemption.

00:22:35

And we can.

00:22:36

Do that creatively.

00:22:37

We can express it creatively through.

00:22:39

Art and music and images.

00:22:41

And whatever.

00:22:41

But I I think we see in scripture that you also can be creative and be a part of.

00:22:47

That missional work of new creation that is coming.

00:22:51

In infinite number of ways, right?

00:22:55

Well, whether you see like the spiritual gifts that are listed there.

00:22:59

None of them are art.

00:23:01

Right.

00:23:01

Yeah, I mean, what would you say to somebody who’s like, well, I don’t paint, I don’t draw.

00:23:06

I’m not even, like, creative in the kitchen?

00:23:08

But how could I express creativity in the church through the for the betterment of the church and for the betterment of the created world that we live in? How could I do that if I’m not quote UN quote creative as the typical world would define it?

00:23:22

Right.

00:23:22

Yeah, I think one of.

00:23:25

The the operating principles that I have with that is that if somebody sat me down and asked me that, I would naturally ask about their personality, the things that they’re not.

00:23:34

That they’re good.

00:23:34

At that, they like that.

00:23:36

It’s not something forced.

00:23:38

Yeah, like what do you just naturally do?

00:23:39

OK.

00:23:40

What makes you tick?

00:23:41

OK.

00:23:41

And there’s a lot of answers, obviously, that people are going to give based on their.

00:23:45

Of experiences, the things that they just enjoy doing. And I would say those don’t have to be mutually exclusive to God’s will for your creative expression and outlet. I would actually say they’re.

00:23:58

An act of worship is to lean into that, because it’s God who is the giver of those gifts.

00:24:04

I’m sorry.

00:24:04

So if you’re in a board gaming Guild, you do.

00:24:08

You know reckley sports you.

00:24:11

I think about Joel.

00:24:12

You grow a garden.

00:24:14

Jana Hub, who was like a Jedi master at home renovation.

00:24:18

Yes, she is.

00:24:19

So there’s all of those different things.

00:24:21

And this is honestly something I really love about Emily is that she has such an eye for like interior decorating and making a space very intentionally.

00:24:30

And also she’s like the best cook in the world.

00:24:32

And I know being in northeast Minneapolis, were spoiled with super good coffee, so shout out to Dogwood.

00:24:40

Bryce literally came into this podcast recording studio, AKA one of our offices here at Antioch, with an espresso from Dogwood.

00:24:49

So that’s why he may sound a.

00:24:50

Little amped this morning.

00:24:52

And all the time.

00:24:55

Can’t stop, won’t stop.

00:24:57

So I think that’s that’s where I would maybe encourage people to.

00:25:04

To actually begin thinking of creative expression is that it doesn’t automatically think about like, you know well film, you know, print art, digital art.

00:25:16

It’s what, like, naturally just love to do.

00:25:18

What do I love being a part of, and how do I invite other people into that?

00:25:22

Got it.

00:25:23

Center of it all, Jesus compelling me.

00:25:25

And and to another question you could consider is how can I use my gifts and abilities?

00:25:31

Interest skills, bigger verb or no?

00:25:37

How can I use those for the the good or for the goal of like creating wholeness so I am so in awe of people who can work with nerves like.

00:25:53

I am not a.

00:25:54

Number but they just carry no meaning for me.

00:25:56

I don’t retain them.

00:25:57

It’s not that I’m just bad at math.

00:25:59

It’s like I.

00:25:59

Don’t remember number.

00:26:01

I spit up my own birthday in high school.

00:26:03

I mean, like it’s not, it just means.

00:26:05

So when people are able to extrapolate data and bring meaning to it and then make decisions that are for the common.

00:26:13

Good from it it’s it’s.

00:26:15

Incredible to me or?

00:26:18

You know, we have, we have people that are, you know, data analysts or math teachers or web designers or and.

00:26:25

Most of them I don’t think would.

00:26:27

Say like, oh I do.

00:26:28

All of this as an actor.

00:26:30

But I I really think it is.

00:26:32

And it can be.

00:26:32

Especially when I see how good they are at it and how much joy they get out of it.

00:26:38

When when we do things that bring joy.

00:26:40

To other people.

00:26:41

Or even just bring joy out of us, that is worship, wonder when rightly appreciated, you know?

00:26:50

And and so actually I’ll I’ll put.

00:26:52

A shout out here we would love to hear.

00:26:55

Stories from you guys too.

00:26:56

We would love to interview people of like how?

00:26:59

How are you using your gifts and abilities in your workplace or your your home wherever you spend your day.

00:27:07

Like it for the glory of God in creative ways that that are not.

00:27:13

Maybe the typical or the stereotypical like artsy?

00:27:17

You know.

00:27:18

We would love to hear that and celebrate that and I think, I think there’s.

00:27:21

Just a million.

00:27:22

Ways that that God is using these people.

00:27:24

And I would say for all all nerds calling all nerds either in this room or listening to the podcast, I’ve personally found Martin Luther’s work on vocation to be a really good, rich theological treatise on this idea of what you do.

00:27:42

Is is all worship, and it has a creative element to it because we worship a God who is a.

00:27:47

Creator so I’d actually be curious to hear maybe from the two of you, because I really think of parenthood as one of the ultimate creative outlets.

00:27:58

Because everybody is.

00:27:59

So unique in.

00:28:00

The way that they raise their kids developing there.

00:28:02

So how have you seen that play out in the way that you’re raising kids, especially young kids?

00:28:08

Yeah, so just for context, we are both first time pair.

00:28:12

It’s birthparents.

00:28:14

I have a.

00:28:16

19 year old step son Gavin and a.

00:28:19

Two and a.

00:28:19

Half year old son.

00:28:20

Dax and Rachel.

00:28:22

Yeah, I have a 6 month old named Abigail and she is.

00:28:26

And I’ve got a 2 year old Black lab named Rory.

00:28:34

Oh, please tell me you have a mug somewhere in your home that says dog Dad.

00:28:38

Not yet.

00:28:39

Oh, OK, yeah, it’s coming.

00:28:42

John, my husband, doesn’t even let us like reference him as Dad for talking to Winston.

00:28:50

I’m dead.

00:28:50

To Dax and and again I have drawn to the dog.

00:28:56

Oh yeah, no, that’s a.

00:28:58

Really good question because, I mean, I grew up working with kids at Camp, Shanna and.

00:29:05

And and also working around and through a lot of creative things, working creatively.

00:29:13

But man as a parent.

00:29:17

The creativity.

00:29:20

There’s a mixture of, I think, preparation and with spontaneity.

00:29:24

So there’s a lot of stuff that.

00:29:25

You want to prepare for.

00:29:27

And maybe, maybe I’m not wired.

00:29:29

This way, Rachel, probably a.

00:29:30

Little bit more, but I I didn’t read.

00:29:32

A single pair.

00:29:33

King book.

00:29:35

I just. That’s exhausting.

00:29:37

To me, just the thought of it.

00:29:40

And but I will sometimes.

00:29:42

Think through like, oh man, today was rough and it was because I wasn’t prepared.

00:29:46

We gotta come up with some creative ways to wear out Dax ’cause.

00:29:50

It’s uh, it’s tough to wear him out.

00:29:53

So how we’re going to?

00:29:53

Do that today, then there’s other times where it’s.

00:29:56

Like well on.

00:29:57

The fly we’re going to do this.

00:29:58

And that’s how we’re going to spend our day.

00:30:00

Yeah, one thing that I.

00:30:03

Try to do to not lose my mind because when you have a 2 1/2 year old.

00:30:09

Losing your mind is a genuine possibility.

00:30:13

Is to see.

00:30:16

This is gonna.

00:30:17

Sound kind of for me and I really.

00:30:18

Don’t mean.

00:30:18

It that way.

00:30:19

But to really try and see how Jesus sees these situations.

00:30:26

So there’s times.

00:30:26

When Dax is full of joy and I am just so irritated because all he’s doing is getting us.

00:30:32

Off track or whatever my track.

00:30:37

But but when I zoom out and.

00:30:39

See, that’s the way Christ sees him.

00:30:42

It’s a lot.

00:30:42

Easier to join another play to join in.

00:30:45

On the fun or the silly?

00:30:49

And not just feel like we write.

00:30:51

This down or I want to grow up?

00:30:52

Right, you know, whatever and and.

00:30:55

Same with Gavin too, I.

00:30:56

Mean now he’s in a he’s.

00:30:57

An adult.

00:30:58

But he lives with us, but you know.

00:31:00

Parenting an adult child.

00:31:01

God is a whole other thing, you know, and.

00:31:05

To do it with.

00:31:06

Love and Grace and patience and recognizing.

00:31:09

Like, we’re not perfect.

00:31:10

Right.

00:31:13

That, and like having become his own person too, he has his own.

00:31:18

He is his own person.

00:31:21

It’s a very different.

00:31:23

Use very different tools with each kit.

00:31:25

Yeah, very different language and muscles.

00:31:31

Yeah, I mean, I would say it’s probably very different from me.

00:31:34

And I’m still learning about what parenthood is and what it can be and learning to love the journey that we’re in, especially now as Abigail is like teething and probably breaking down crying in the next room over.

00:31:46

Uhm, you know, I came off of 10 years of teaching in classrooms and then came into parenthood, and there’s nothing more humbling than realizing, Yep, education.

00:31:56

Like gave me no, no contacts on what parenthood actually would.

00:32:02

But I think one thing that I’m realizing in parenthood is that she’s at this age now where she’s just curious about the world around her.

00:32:10

Like, we can’t bring her to a restaurant without her wanting to lean over into the booth behind us and like, just see what’s over there and who’s over there and trying to tap into this idea that, like curiosity.

00:32:22

Is a good thing and curiosity about the world around us.

00:32:24

We want to learn things.

00:32:26

And so it’s come to even as Joel and I are on walks with her in her stroller, pointing out and talking about the things that we see around us and pointing out nature and what God created.

00:32:37

And wow, look at those green leaves on that tree.

00:32:40

They’re so vibrant and right now that, you know, it’s kind of a dual fold thing is we want to give her vocabulary to describe.

00:32:46

The world around her.

00:32:48

But also, you know, identifying the things around her that she can see that God has created.

00:32:54

And and even as she’s learning things like how to eat, like some foods, right now, she’s got to learn how to use a spoon.

00:33:04

And that’s a struggle to see sometimes, and it’s very painful to watch.

00:33:08

But you know, she’s learning how to use tools purposely, purposefully, and.

00:33:15

I think that’s one thing that as she’s learning, I can see like, OK, it’s it’s good to see the struggle.

00:33:21

The struggle is good, we often remind ourselves.

00:33:23

But also how can we build this identity in her that like we use things to for a purpose in our world and as she gets older using.

00:33:32

Our skills, our gifts, our abilities and the things around us to better ourselves, others, and to have a vocabulary to describe what we see and how it can be used in the world is one way that I see creativity coming into play already in parenthood.

00:33:48

Yeah, that’s really good.

00:33:50

Appreciate both your answers.

00:33:52

But it’s also.

00:33:53

That how can we creatively as parents?

00:33:58

Engage the world around us with our kids.

00:34:02

It’s not that, my world.

00:34:03

Has now become my kid.

00:34:05

It’s it’s like now, OK, my yes is my primary mission field, my family, and the primary responsibility is to my home, the people within my house.

00:34:17

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that.

00:34:20

I’m no longer caring for you.

00:34:22

Know I.

00:34:22

Don’t I no longer have.

00:34:23

To love my neighbor as myself, you know.

00:34:24

Right.

00:34:25

That’s still, that’s still part.

00:34:27

The call and.

00:34:28

So how do we it actually requires more creativity because frankly, it was easier to do that when I was single.

00:34:37

And then it was easier to do it when.

00:34:38

We were just married with one.

00:34:40

Right.

00:34:40

And then it was easier.

00:34:41

To do it.

00:34:42

But you know.

00:34:42

Like it’s it gets harder and harder.

00:34:46

But it it gets harder because you have to.

00:34:49

Be more creative, right?

00:34:51

And that’s one thing you’ve encouraged me.

00:34:53

And in parenting, poli is.

00:34:56

You know, reminding me you said that to me at one point.

00:34:59

We have tried to be very intentional on bringing Dax with us to things like grocery distribution preparation on Monday evenings.

00:35:06

And I’ve seen you bring him in his jammies even, right?

00:35:09

And he’s running around and he’s carrying cans and doing different things with grout.

00:35:13

Like just ripping around.

00:35:15

But he sees Mom, dad, the community group that is like family to him, serving others, and he can be a part of that.

00:35:22

And that’s allowing him to creatively see what community looks like around him.

00:35:27

And and you said this at one point, you’re like, even all those things that we do and try to be intentional, like, he still thinks he’s the center of the world, right?

00:35:35

And so it is a process over time of allowing him to see how gift skills can be used by community to better others and kids developmentally just don’t understand that, but building it into your family.

00:35:47

Culture and rhythms is important too.

00:35:50

Yeah, yeah, and and that.

00:35:52

Sort of leads into the.

00:35:53

And like.

00:35:54

One of the.

00:35:55

Reasons that we have this.

00:35:55

Is a core value.

00:35:56

I said this earlier is.

00:35:57

Yes, because of the community that we’re in in the arts district, and that’s the the artistic artsy going on both.

00:36:00

Right.

00:36:03

Side of it.

00:36:04

But there’s also this piece.

00:36:05

Of of demonstrating the.

00:36:07

Heart of God in our church and community, that that is creativity.

00:36:12

We’ve already said you.

00:36:12

Know God is the ultimate.

00:36:14

Creator and we get.

00:36:14

To be a part of that.

00:36:17

I think 1 great example.

00:36:18

Of this kind of played out, there’s tons.

00:36:21

Of examples of Jesus doing things in an unexpected way, which I think.

00:36:26

Is a creative way.

00:36:29

Every time Jesus tells a parable it he tells a story instead of a platitude, instead of just a statement he tells.

00:36:36

It through a story.

00:36:37

Makes people have.

00:36:38

To dig and look and think harder and.

00:36:42

Which there’s actually, you know, points in the Gospels in particular, where part of the narrative art is that there’s people who don’t understand.

00:36:52

Who misinterpret or completely kind of like the punchline in the parables, and it’s an indictment against them, but again.

00:37:00

They’re they’re sort.

00:37:01

Of dense to the fact that Jesus is employing a certain kind of storytelling mechanism.

00:37:07

It’s also an argument for.

00:37:09

Why not to read.

00:37:10

What you’re saying is an argument.

00:37:12

Or why we can’t read the Bible as postmodernists that know Jesus and all of the writers had an intent.

00:37:19

Yep, there was a.

00:37:20

Goal with a message.

00:37:21

There was a something they wanted to communicate and it’s not up to me as the reader to decide what that is and I I think.

00:37:29

That that that general trend is sort of falling.

00:37:34

Apart because authors like want to have their point across.

00:37:38

Not just be in the.

00:37:39

Hands of the of the receiver or artists and.

00:37:42

It doesn’t mean you can’t.

00:37:44

I’m not myself.

00:37:45

Got a tangent marker?

00:37:46

But uhm.

00:37:51

Oh, but another example that you see.

00:37:54

Is the way Paul shares the gospel, yes.

00:37:59

Nine times out of 10 when he goes into.

00:38:01

A city, he.

00:38:02

Goes first to the synagogues and talks to the.

00:38:05

Jewish people and.

00:38:06

Argues for debates with them.

00:38:08

For why Jesus is the Messiah, you guys.

00:38:11

Have been waiting for but.

00:38:13

In accident, teen.

00:38:14

It’s just this incredible passage.

00:38:17

Where he goes to.

00:38:19

Ah, Athens.

00:38:21

Yep, so this is yeah.

00:38:22

Yeah, he goes Athens.

00:38:23

And and there’s there’s at least there’s.

00:38:26

Maybe not a prominent.

00:38:27

Synagogue or it’s not, it’s.

00:38:28

Not where we hear about him going.

00:38:30

But it’s not in this, in this passage.

00:38:34

And as he’s walking around Athens.

00:38:36

Is like the hub of all of these.

00:38:38

Different Pagan worship.

00:38:40

Sites and he’s walking around and he sees all of these temples and altars to all of these different gods.

00:38:47

And in light of what he sees in the culture?

00:38:51

He changes the way that he delivers the.

00:38:54

Message and you know, unfortunately he gets.

00:38:58

I’ll let you guys go back and read it.

00:38:59

I had recommended accident team he only and he has to even back up with the Jews.

00:39:05

He is able to say like.

00:39:07

The word God and you know what I mean.

00:39:09

You know, he says.

00:39:10

Messiah. And you know what?

00:39:11

I mean here with the with the Pagan worshippers.

00:39:14

And the Stoics and.

00:39:16

That kind of thing, he.

00:39:18

Is he has to back up and explain, like, OK, there’s this.

00:39:22

God, yeah.

00:39:23

And he’s.

00:39:24

Bigger than all these other gods.

00:39:26

And yeah, yeah.

00:39:27

But he uses things from the culture that he has observed around him in that discussion, and he doesn’t he he isn’t allowed, in that moment, to get all the way through.

00:39:38

Explaining Jesus, but he’s setting the.

00:39:41

Groundwork there for it, for that conversation, and they say.

00:39:45

Well, we want to.

00:39:45

Hear more about this.

00:39:46

Which maybe that’s actually I’d love to read the 1st 3 verses.

00:39:50

In chapter 17.

00:39:52

So it says now, while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols, which I think that’s actually a very interesting kind of intro and opening line.

00:40:04

Here’s verse 17.

00:40:06

So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the developed persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happen to be there.

00:40:13

Some of the Epicurean and stoic philosophers, which was, I mean a very cosmopolitan thing in Athens, to think things, also converse with them.

00:40:22

And some said, what does this babbler wish to say?

00:40:26

Others said he seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.

00:40:33

Oh, so we did.

00:40:33

Yeah, so we.

00:40:34

Did get to.

00:40:34

Do those and but I think it’s it’s fascinating that it says you know some said.

00:40:38

What does this?

00:40:39

Wish to say or he seems.

00:40:42

To be a preacher of foreign divinities, there’s.

00:40:44

A. Because Athens would.

00:40:48

I mean, I guess it depends on the historical, you know, period that you’re looking at because Nero was literally lighting Christians on fire.

00:40:55

But especially, like later on, during Constantine’s reign, you see this kind of pluralist acceptance of everybody who’s worshipping, you know, Greco-roman deities, along with Christians and along with Jews.

00:41:07

They’re more or less tolerated together so.

00:41:09

It’s fascinating that they recognize there’s this kind of ragtag group of sort of what they would have.

00:41:16

Probably called Neo Jews.

00:41:18

What is he kind of talking about?

00:41:20

But he’s at least skilled enough, Paul, so southern go toe to toe with them.

00:41:26

He’s not speaking as somebody who’s so outside of it that they’re just kind of like.

00:41:30

You don’t seem to be an expert in anything.

00:41:32

Why should I take you seriously?

00:41:33

Which I think speaks to the creative energy because Paul being, you know, a dual citizen.

00:41:41

And being, you know, trained by the Pharisees, but also being a.

00:41:45

Skilled, skilled. Skilled.

00:41:47

You know writer?

00:41:49

Yeah, I mean, that played to his energy, yeah.

00:41:51

Because when he, when he.

00:41:52

Starts with the part I was thinking about ’cause.

00:41:55

I actually didn’t have it pulled.

00:41:56

Up I probably should have but.

00:41:58

Uhm is when he walks around and sees.

00:42:00

All these altars.

00:42:01

To gods, different gods, and there’s one labeled.

00:42:05

To the unknown God.

00:42:06

It is.

00:42:07

And then he goes, I got it.

00:42:09

Sure, I can start and so then that’s where he starts, he says.

00:42:13

Guys, you haven’t.

00:42:14

You have an alternate this unknown guy.

00:42:15

I can make him known.

00:42:18

Let me reveal this, that he is the one who has created everything and gives life and breath into that and that’s.

00:42:27

His in Rd.

00:42:28

To getting Jesus, which it’s it’s such a great example for what we ought to do in the culture today.

00:42:33

So I guess that.

00:42:36

Begs the question then, I mean.

00:42:38

Most of us aren’t.

00:42:40

OK, you are actually, but but not.

00:42:43

Most of the.

00:42:43

Time, you know.

00:42:45

Even then, most of us are creatures most of us aren’t.

00:42:49

Having debates with Epicureans.

00:42:52

I don’t have one.

00:42:53

Not lately, no.

00:42:54

I love playing this.

00:42:55

Actually, they just.

00:42:56

Don’t know it?

00:42:56

But but yeah, so like, how how can we use our skills?

00:43:04

Spiritual gifts, general gifts, things?

00:43:08

In a way that is creative and can foster a renewal.

00:43:13

In bringing in new networks.

00:43:16

Yeah, I think it begins by.

00:43:20

Allowing yourself to see it the locale that God is with you.

00:43:25

Because, you know, as a church especially, you know, with some of our beliefs theologically, you know, we put a high premium on God’s sovereignty and the fact that he has providentially put you and I in a workplace, in a family context, and even in this church we really think about it.

00:43:44

For a time such as this.

00:43:47

Which means it’s our obligation, and not under a four sort of way, but in loving response.

00:43:53

It’s our obligation to understand and read the topography of where we are.

00:43:57

So whether.

00:43:57

You are a.

00:43:57

Data analyst and I think about, you know, Rhino, it’s who has worked at U.S. bank for like a couple of decades now. So Brian, if you’re listening?

00:44:07

How’s it going?

00:44:11

That there’s a really beautiful thing about people, especially who are a little bit.

00:44:15

Older that have.

00:44:16

Had experiences working in the same workplace, or maybe a couple for the long haul.

00:44:22

And I think that speaks to a principle which is that creativity necessarily is not just a.

00:44:27

Flash in the.

00:44:28

It’s actually something that is to be cultivated for.

00:44:31

What Eugene Peterson calls long obedience in the same direction.

00:44:35

So I think playing a long game and then seeing where you are and asking the Holy Spirit to give you eyes and energy to see how to employ those gifts and those.

00:44:46

Things that you’re naturally good at.

00:44:49

Yeah, that’s really good.

00:44:50

I I love what you said about the long game.

00:44:51

I I don’t think I used that phrase, but I was thinking it when we were talking.

00:44:54

About parenting that.

00:44:55

You have to take the long game, yeah?

00:44:57

With kids and.

00:44:57

It’s such a reminder of how Jesus has definitely.

00:45:02

Lived along with me.

00:45:03

Oh yeah.

00:45:04

Yeah, and even and even though.

00:45:05

Like when when we read the Bible, God has played the long game of Israel, and leading up to the church he didn’t just, you know, lifelessly clean.

00:45:14

He operated, you know, within the structures that Israel was living in, among, against, to set up his Kingdom, thinking about the call.

00:45:23

Bigger images.

00:45:24

Well, but I think that’s maybe the last thing that I’ll.

00:45:26

Say is that.

00:45:28

Reading the Bible, understanding that we worship a creative God, and the authors were creatively inspired, not just divinely inspired, but creatively inspired that their voices, their cultural context, their unique.

00:45:44

Personality, their syntax, they’re all uniquely used.

00:45:47

They’re not scrubbed to kind of make it ’cause.

00:45:49

Otherwise, it almost turns into Mormonism.

00:45:51

Or it’s like these.

00:45:51

Building tablets that are just kind of.

00:45:53

You know, owned into, into writing.

00:45:56

But I think that speaks.

00:45:57

To the God that we worship because the authors.

00:45:59

Were allowed to use.

00:46:01

Those things to create what we now.

00:46:04

Have as the Bible.

00:46:05

Yeah, yeah, and here it is.

00:46:07

I hope that we are emulating that in the ways.

00:46:11

That we can by allowing people to use.

00:46:13

Their guesses and abilities and.

00:46:16

You know, letting people.

00:46:19

Have their own voice.

00:46:20

Not just saying like, well, that’s not.

00:46:22

How we would say it.

00:46:23

So, like it’s wrong.

00:46:25

You know when.

00:46:26

When it’s probably perfectly fine.

00:46:27

Yeah, exactly.

00:46:28

You know.

00:46:28

But it’s in their percent.

00:46:30

Uhm well, thank you for coming in.

00:46:33

This is really good once again.

00:46:34

What we do on but.

00:46:35

That’s simply fine, but retroversion, that’s just gonna help.

00:46:38

That’s just how it’s gonna roll.

00:46:39

We will have.

00:46:40

It done but.

00:46:41

Uhm, yeah.

00:46:42

So listeners, thank you for joining us.

00:46:45

We will put some of these links in the show notes like the podcast we referenced, some books for reference lanes, shows coming up, yes or her residency.

00:46:54

Definitely go and support her.

00:46:57

She’s she’s rocking it this year extremely easy.

00:47:00

Oh, but until until next.

00:47:03

Time, have a great week and we will continue with our creativity or with our core value series.

00:47:10

Very, very soon.

00:47:14

This has been the life in the city podcast brought to you by Antioch Community Church in Northeast Minneapolis. Join our worship service at 10:00 AM on Sundays in the Waterbury Building or contact us at podcast@antiochcommunity.org. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.